HCI or SC(VT or KB)

[95_cobra123]

Guys looking to start a project this winter and its going to be HCI witch would be AFR's and N41 cam and maybe Holly System Max 2 Intake or just keep the Cobra one and save money.

Or Looking at some SC's witch would be Vortech or Kenny Bell. Mods are in sig


I kind of have an idea but i am not sure on one hand you should build up the Eng and then add power adder is what i have always been told but some times i think i just want to get in the high 11's low 12's But i know i will need some more suspension work done before that area witch i am in the process of putting that all together now.

On the AFR's whats the best to go with out there is 165 the biggest i can go or can i go up to 185 i don't think i can because of clearance is that right?


Thank Guys

 

[302GTS]

Honestly, from the gains I've seen from Kenne Bell kits on our motors, I'd choose the h/c/i... That way, you can be all motor, and making some good power on that.

Down the road if that's not enough, you can throw a nice Vortech on there to get you up past the 400rwhp range.

As for the AFR's, I think you can use the 185's, but from what I've heard, the 165's are the best. Maybe 185's and the other higher flowing ones are for larger motors? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

 

[rj95svt]

AFR 185's require piston notching due to the 2.02 valves. AFR 165's are the largest AFR's you can add without problems. TFS twisted wedges have different valve angles which allows clearance with the 2.02 valves without notching the pistons. I think if you were going to add a sc I would use the TW's they have slightly larger ports and tend to be very boost friendly.

 

[Black95GTS]

A high 11 / low 12 second car can be had by doing either the HCI swap or the supercharger. Seeing how you already have a 4.10 screw, the Kenne Bell supercharger would be extremely hard to drive on the street.

Slapping on the Vortech is probably the cheapest and easiest method to atain your goals. You won't have a problem producing enough power for 11s, but like you mentioned earlier that power is useless if you can't plant it.

Honestly if you ported your intake, had a valve job done on the heads, and retarded the cam shaft you should be in the 12s all day long after some practice.

Adam

 

[HankyGT]

With worked GT40s and ported upper with @ the same mods you have and an f-cam, my brothers 94 cobra did like 280rwhp/302tq on a dynojet dyno.

on a 125 shot (a few pulls after) he did 397/510. However I don't like the idea of filling bottles.

I have AFR165s/edel perf 5.0 intake/tfs stg 1 cam in my 94 gt and did 296/315 with that on a mustang dyno. I then added 11psi of vortech strim'd boost and promptly kicked the rings out of my 185k shortblock...gay.


Honeslty, h/c/i is a waste of time as are GTs in my opinion. You at least dont have to buy 80% of the supporting stuff on a cobra and I though the worked GT40s made really nice #s; but it's still going to be a 300rwhp car and run around the same or slower than a stockish LS1 car. To me, that is a waste of freaking time. Yea, you can TRY to 60' your way down into the 12s and yea, you can EEK out some high 12s trapping 103ish but thats going to leave alot to be desired on the street when your not on slicks or from a roll.

Seeing results from when I was in the shop messing with my vortech, and my past 8yrs experience with boost; there's no way in hell I WOULDNT turbo the next one. You will make an ass-ton of tq and you can just keep turning up the wick as long as you keep the heat soak down and the tune safe. You also have less force on the snout of the crank and that super fun tq curve turbo cars get.

I'd budget around 3k and go with a power adder, and find someone local to work those heads, and start saving for a bottom end. Or you can be like me; waste about 3500-4k in a supported and tuned h/c/i setup, then spend another 4k on a blower, tune and supporting mods you get to change back out....and STILL need a 2k minimum new shortblock. Count your blessings you were smart enough to buy a cobra and not have to spend thousands making your standard crap box up to par.

If I could do it all again.....I wouldnt. 4v car or an LS1 hands down but I'm not starting that argument again.

 

[95_cobra123]

HankyGT

i will have to say SC would be nice turbo is what i want but god ur talking 4 to 5k for just all the parts!!! and i have seen people run 340rwhp on hci with the right set up on a 302 witch is GREAT! I can see with a good set up and tune by Anderson since they r 25 mins from me hitting those marks but i am not sure like i said turbo is what i want but money is not there for a turbo set up. If i could do a Full turbo set up for 4500 i would but they dont make them.

 

[final5-0]

I've given so much thought to just your situation

Here is how I see it

You already got better flowing heads with the GT40's
True ... The decks are a bit thin on iron OEM heads
but
They do move more air than E7's

You already got the better intake than a GT

I'd hit that OEM block, better heads/intake with some boost

I mean ... With those heads & intake ..............
You can get to block splitting power as you are ... can you not

Above ... Adam talked about your 410's

Seems like they would be a bit steep with a Vortech

Also ... Them Anderson boys ... You say they get 340 rwhp

I'd wanna know or get clarified

Is this an OEM short block
Is this a Dynojet
Is this STD or SAE
Lastly ... How radical is the cam they use to get such results

Grady

 

[94gtfreak]

Grady....ur vastness of knowledge never ceases to amaze me! U sir are an amazing individual!

 

[HankyGT]

You're not TOUCHING 340rwhp on an anything streetable 302 that isn't twisted to the freaking moon on a happy dyno.

I just gave you some #s that are pretty decent for ported non 'p' GT40s. Yea the wall thickness sucks but you ARE NOT getting away from that anywhere under $1000 even for used aluminum **** (and I still wouldnt trust just slapping them on), but whatever..it'll get it done for the moment just tune it safe, run studs and decent HG's.

If you think you can't afford it; you really cannot afford it. There are so many 'small' items that really need attended to that it adds up so fast. Here's just a 'basic' rundown of any non half a$$ job and I will use some pretty realistic #s.

Power adder (vortech) @ $3,000.00
Anderson Power pipe $220.00
Ford Racing 42# inject $320.00
Lightning 90mm MAS $90.00
Inline booster pump $340.00 (you can haggle this with a 255 bs but I like to be safe, incl my intake 190 paired with it)
Boost gauge $40.00
Wideband 02 gauge $200.00
Tune and chip $500.00 (usually more.....mine was and I had an SCT 4bank already)
NGK TR6 plugs $20.00
Oil change/coolant $30.00
_________________________________________________________
Total for an honest setup $4760.00

I need to go throw up because I also lunched a rear main and a fresh clutch on the dyno. If you feel these $'s are cheated you are straight up lying to yourself. They are well within $2-300.00 of what you are going to spend EASY.

Then tell yourself you WILL need a bottom end....and don't even think about the H/C/I costs you might incur ontop of this..... Oh yea. There must be some rich sumbitches building mustangs, because you can knock down 90% of the power figure with well under 3k into an LS1.

You want a # for cheap, get the heads worked and get a bottle. Try and buy a used power adder complete setup and PRAY it isnt trashed and missing ****.

Please do not get me started on the cost of getting the brakes and suspension up to snuff, the driveline beefed up, ANY amount of bodywork (ie. that snazzy hood to clear your new intake).

I can promise you this: This will be the absolute last pushrod mustake I will ever trick myself into investing in. I have like 3yrs of like endless $ shoveling into a car that REQUIRES like 3k to do it right to even get it back down the road (DSS 331 + tune + misc incurred costs/cam etc). It will still just be at or eclipsing 500whp, and only like 10k later!

WHO in the right mind is going to want to build a mustang?!! I even do all the work myself lol.
The ONLY way to play is to BUDGET BUDGET BUDGET and be happy with whatever you get. Otherwise just switch camps now or move up the pony foodchain into an 03/04 car.

Cheap, fast or reliable......clearly I haven't spent enough yet.

 

[nmcgrawj]

LOL @ hanky


Nothing about this hobby is cheap....for ANY car.

 

[95_cobra123]

First off about your 4.6. i hate them i had one before the 5.0 i went back because i hated the 4.6 waste of money and time. and will never touch one again in less 03 04.

Ok as for heads you know you can get some good money back out of a94-95 up cobra system around 500 to 600 back thats not bad after u just spent 1400 on AFR's so that is one reason i looked at HCI But u say all this extra stuff you have to buy to get a SC maybe we should look around and see whats out there before we start talking about it. not saying you missed it but better research would help. For example. AFM 5.0/5.8 Supercharger Kits Yep that's everything i need. But we each think differently we all have our own ideas of what we think is best. I think that with that kit i would be happy but i guess i will not know till i set out n do one or the other. The other fact is i have owned 2 Dif. turbo Eclipse's GSX and GST and have boost G, AF G. So i dont need to worry about those extra cost do i have to use a 90MAF i didn't think so but i could be wrong. I just put NGK plugs in 3 months ago and have put less then 1k miles on it so i should be good there but for the most part i think everything else is there. plz correct me if i am wrong.

I also have given this a look at.

AFM Power Packages

ok what you think guys


HCI
AFM Power Packages


SC
AFM 5.0/5.8 Supercharger Kits


Thanks

 

[347_stang]

I'd go with the vortech..

 

[HankyGT]

I am refering to 4 valve per cylinder (ie. 4v / 32v cobras)....they are not the 2v moneypits when you add boost that shatter stock rods.

What does this mean?

"have owned 2 Dif. turbo Eclipse's GSX and GST and have boost G, AF G."

I've had turbo DSMs for 8yrs and I am lost on that 'lingo'

No, you can't use a DSM maf if that's what you're trying to spit out, no you dont use a boost controller like a DSM would with a blower....the onlything you can use is the fuel pump itself.

You will also notice neither of the anderson kits in the link come with fuel injectors. That is another $300 as mentioned. If you buy a non tuner-kit vortech that comes with fuel injectors, a lame boost retard box and a ****ty fmu then they set you up with 24# units.

The lightning is a 90mm and yes, if you are making any power you NEED the 90. You can actually max that one out quite easily as the size of the MAS limits the air correction tables and ultimately how much power you can make saftely. Fortunetely it is tunable for whatever injector and is fairly cheap.

Thirdly, other than the kit that comes with a PMS (good luck btw), you still have to get your car tuned. This does not mean set the fuel pressure and base timing. To do it correctly you will need a chip which is like $220-250, a flip switch if you want diff maps $30 and then dyno time which is typically another $250 ontop of that. I would not want to try my hands out fresh with a managment system on my first s/c'd car. Idk how much you got into the tuning end of DSMs and all but these dont have knock sensors, we dont have rings setup for boost and they aren't nearly as forgiving as a clean burning hemispherical combustion chamber 4v design.

Forth, You can have just bought NGK plugs, but they sell diff heat ranges for a reason. You might have stepped 1 colder with your timing bumped, but I doubt you dropped to a tr6/autolite 23 unless you like to actually loose power n/a with conservite stock ECU timing maps. You typically drop 2 heat ranges with boost.

I am not trying to start a pissing match, but PLEASE do not tell me to do my homework. Nice boost gauge and wideband (not the crappy back and forth narrowband a/f gauges) they have there in that Anderson kit huh? Oh, you don't see it? Because it's not there. Try tuning without them...see how far you get.

I am trying to be helpful and shed some light; I've been down more roads and worked on alot more exotic **** then a caveman 5.0. Don't take it for all for granted.

 

[HankyGT]

Also FYI, all your anderson dyno #s are on a dynojet with no a/f given....granted a 13.0 at WOT typically will see best results on an n/a powerpull, you still are not given any insight on pump or race gas and the total timing of the setup. Accordingly you are also seeing #s from a fresh 302.

I garuntee I wouldve been right there with my AFR'd 179k mile 5.0 on a dynojet. I do like the idea of a total package though, makes it nice, 'easy'.

 

[final5-0]

Grady....ur vastness of knowledge never ceases to amaze me! U sir are an amazing individual!

You are kind to say that

But

As I see it

N O T H I N G that I've said on this site is all that original

As A Matter Of Fact

Almost all of it has been talked about before on this very site

Now ... If we wanna talk about a smart feller

Look no farther than our resident Wizard ... Mr. JT

Grady

 

[nmcgrawj]

.....
Thirdly, other than the kit that comes with a PMS (good luck btw), you still have to get your car tuned. This does not mean set the fuel pressure and base timing. .....

were u trying to imply that the PMS is hard to tune with?



Its all about your attitude and how you go about something. Tuning with a PMS is easy. If you take your time, and make small safe adjustments, there is no reason you cant do it yourself.


Its not like he'd be shooting in the dark on where to start...there a sites dedicated to guys sharing their tunes. He wont have some exotic combo that he wont be able to find someone with something similar....so he'll find multiple tunes from people who have gotten it done, make them even more safe, then slowly dial them in. He could even lock out the timing at first to just get the fuel dialed in if he wanted.




You may be trying to help, but i think your attitude is gonna rub new people the wrong way. I've been doing this for a while, so i just laugh at some of the crap you say....but just simmer down, dont take this stuff so seriously lol

 

[HankyGT]

Haha, okay fair enough. I will hope he can figure it out and make it as safe as someone who does it for a living with good drivability.

Tell you what, I can save him THOUSANDS right now; I'll just sell him mine! Nice expensive h/c/i setup, polished strim with all the goodies, a nice suspension setup, cobra brakes, perfect paint and interior, a tasteful set of wheels and a gone through drivetrain! Toss in a shortblock and have massive amounts of WIN for half of what it's actually cost. I will then leave everyone here alone.

 

[Husky44]

Tell you what, I can save him THOUSANDS right now; I'll just sell him mine! Nice expensive h/c/i setup, polished strim with all the goodies, a nice suspension setup, cobra brakes, perfect paint and interior, a tasteful set of wheels and a gone through drivetrain! Toss in a shortblock and have massive amounts of WIN for half of what it's actually cost. I will then leave everyone here alone.

Do I gather correctly that you aren't real fond of your car? If so, why don't you get rid of it? Seems to me if my toy ticked me off that much, I'd find a new toy.

That's why I don't play golf...

 

[nmcgrawj]

Haha, okay fair enough. I will hope he can figure it out and make it as safe as someone who does it for a living with good drivability.

With that logic they shouldnt sell equipment for guys to tune their cars themselves



Just cause someone does it for a living does not guarantee that it will be right. If its possible for me to do it...im gonna figure out how!

 

[HankyGT]

Not arguing that it can't be done. It's that for every 1 mustang owner I meet who can get his own stuff done correctly there are 19 retards to counter him; that and the idea of tuning your own stuff is a lost art to alot of people. We design, manufacture, install, and tune fuel injection systems specifically where I work. I am utterly AMAZED by how many big name places can be utterly lost on tuning. Sure it can be done. But when you get fed up because you can't do it yourself...you'll drag it somewhere and pay. I just find it utterly unrealistic to say 'yeah see this is all it costs'.....because it's not and it doesnt.

Yeah, I shouldve got out of the game awhile back, but I'm too deep in now. Might try to sell again after I finish the engine. No one is going to want to pay what I would ask for a car that isn't right.