Supercharger Gurus

darthcual · Mar 29, 2012

I'm going to run the vortech v-3 at 6lbs of boost. I need to know what extras I will need to finish the install. Will a 190lph fuel pump be enough? Will I need a wideband? With the boost that low will I need a tune? If I need it tuned what tuning device should I go with? And so on, etc.....

Car has Cobra intake GT40p heads, long tubes/full exhaust, underdrive pullies, tremec3550

Noobz347 · Mar 29, 2012

Will a 190lph fuel pump be enough?

You couldn't pay me to run a 190 for ANY reason. They have a terrible habit of internally bypassing @ around 60 psi. Hugely important for FMU people. Unnerving for everyone else. Get a 255 High pressure and call it quits.

Will I need a wideband?

I would get one. Cheap insurance.

With the boost that low will I need a tune?

Your wideband will take the guess work out of this question.

If I need it tuned what tuning device should I go with?

That totally depends on what you intend in the future. If you plan to continually mod and don't want to retune and dyno each time, then get one you can modify yourself. If you're not someone capable of tuning then I would suggest an Anderson PMS for ease of operation. If you're totally looking forward the challenge of tuning then a Quarter Horse is less expensive alternative. Don't forget that you will spend money on software/computer hardware for the QH. Factor that in when you're looking at prices.

darthcual · Mar 29, 2012

A 255 high pressure? Would that be a Walbro? Also you are saying to run a wideband, and I will need a tune? Sorry that was not clear to me. I dont want to tune it myself and this is obviously a very mild street car. I want to make 350 to the wheels, is this possible with this set up?

For now, this will be the stopping point for the mods. However, at some point way down the road I will build a 306 with heavier boost in mind.

Noobz347 · Mar 29, 2012

Yes... the 255 High pressure is a Walbro. They have a 255 in standard pressure and one in a high pressure. I recommend the high pressure because fuel volume stays more constant in boosted applications and will also allow you run a lot more boost and power as you mod down the road. Might as well buy it just once.

Yes... By all means... RUN A WIDEBAND! If you do end up needing a tune for that combo then the wideband will tell you. No guessing involved.

If you do end up needing a tune for that combo and don't want to tune it yourself then schedule your dyno and tune time with a shop near you. Just make sure they do more than just a WOT tune. They need to look at AFR at part power settings as well.

When/if you build the new motor, you can reuse your chip. It will just need to be reprogrammed for the new setup.

I cannot tell you for sure that you will or will not need a tune for your setup. It's pretty mild and 6 lbs of boost is not a lot. Are you planning to run an FMU with this blower or are you going to run larger injectors and tune MAF, or what?

Either way... if you install a wideband AFR then you will KNOW if you require tuning based on the AFR reading.

VibrantRedGT · Mar 29, 2012

I agree with Noobz. I ran a 255 in tank and a Vortech 155 in line pump. Always get it tuned after forced induction or you'll be changing head gaskets or worse. You can run 30lb injectors and FMU supplied in the Vortech but I'd just run a big injector and be done with it. I ran 42 lb injectors and matching Pro-M 80MM mass air meter. Also look into a power pipe. The plastic dryer hose that comes with the kit only fits the stock meter. UPR sells a plastic power pipe for $105 or you can get the AFM power pipe but they are pricey. With the mods you have and 6psi you should make over 350HP easily.

Here is the V3i kit they we installed on a friends car. We ran the FMU and 30lb injectors and UPR power pipe.

darthcual · Mar 29, 2012

Okay thanks for the replies. I assume the FMU is some type of fuel management? I could be wrong. But, now I know what I need to get things started. A buddy had a 190lph pump brand new in box but I want to do it right, and once.

Noobz347 · Mar 29, 2012

darthcual said:
Okay thanks for the replies. I assume the FMU is some type of fuel management? I could be wrong. But, now I know what I need to get things started. A buddy had a 190lph pump brand new in box but I want to do it right, and once.

190s are not compatible with FMUs.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 30, 2012

I wouldn't bother with the wideband set up unless you plan on tuning the car yourself. A wideband A/F ratio system is used in order to tell you what your A/F ratio is under all throttle conditions, both boosted and at vaccuum. It won't change any of the readings, just measure them.

If you plan on taking it to be dyno tuned, then they'll have all of the necessary equipment there to measure A/F ratio and any changes needed can be written into the tune.

For what you'd pay for a decent A/F ratio monitoring system, you could cover the cost of your tune.

Just don't be bombing around and running any WOT pulls until you see your tuner.

90lxcoupe · Mar 31, 2012

Get a wideband, its not wasted money, the innovate MTX-L is a great unit, and they are $175 on amazon($175 wont cover an hour and a half on a dyno, let alone the cost of the tune). IMO, that gauge is useful even in basic HCI cars. In my case, when i was running the factory computer(with factory o2 sensors still controlling the AF table), the AF ratio was way off, the car was running alright, so the gauge told me something was wrong. I started looking over the car for problems and i found a pinched wire on a factory o2 sensor. If i didnt have the wideband i would have had no idea there was a problem.

Saying you dont need a wideband is like saying you dont need a water temperature gauge. If you used that same logic for a water temp gauge you could say that well you cant changed it and the factory designed the car to run at 180* so thats where its gonna run... but we all know thats not how real life works.

Knowledge is power.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 31, 2012

90lxcoupe said:
Get a wideband, its not wasted money, the innovate MTX-L is a great unit, and they are $175 on amazon($175 wont cover an hour and a half on a dyno, let alone the cost of the tune). IMO, that gauge is useful even in basic HCI cars. In my case, when i was running the factory computer(with factory o2 sensors still controlling the AF table), the AF ratio was way off, the car was running alright, so the gauge told me something was wrong. I started looking over the car for problems and i found a pinched wire on a factory o2 sensor. If i didnt have the wideband i would have had no idea there was a problem.

Saying you dont need a wideband is like saying you dont need a water temperature gauge. If you used that same logic for a water temp gauge you could say that well you cant changed it and the factory designed the car to run at 180* so thats where its gonna run... but we all know thats not how real life works.

Knowledge is power.

95% of the forced induction cars out there don't run Wideband set ups.

As stated....this is all monitored for you when you take the vehicle in for the tune. Is it a waste fo money? No. Can you run one? Sure....but is it a necessity? Nope...not if you're taking it in to be tuned anyway.

I mean...if that were the case, everyone should be running one. Forced induction, N/A, or otherwise. As far as your bad sensor goes....as much as you'd like to credit your wideband for finding it for you, you could have easily found that code by running a plain old diagnostic on it just the same.

I had the Innovate LM-1 set up on my Cougar. I bought it with the intention of doing my own tuning. When that didn't work out, I brought it to they dyno to have it done. They did a spot on job. About a year later, the wideband sensor burnt out and it started flashing error codes and quit working and I never used it again. I could have spend the $200 of something far more useful.

Again...if you're going to tune your own vehcile....by all means, buy it. If not...rely on the equipment at your local dyno. They make their living making sure that their stuff if accurate and working. Don't give it a second though.

fiveohwblow · Mar 31, 2012

Agreed with the following:

Run the hipo 255 walbro

Run 42 lb injectors

Get an SCT chip and have it tuned. A buddy of mine ran 7 lbs with an si trim on a trick flow top end and put down 450 rwhp on a mustang dyno. He detuned it to 420 rwhp. I wouldn't feel comfortable not having a tune around those power levels.

I have never, in 7 years of boost ran a wideband. My old man has owned his 03 10th anniversary since it was new, never ran a wideband. No factory car that I am aware of comes with one, even boosted ones. They are only NECESSARY during tuning. Should you desire one, spend away. In my experience, most of the time on a FI car you find out something is too wrong too late. You're not going to stare at it 100% of the time and when and if something goes wrong it's going to be under boost, when you're watching the road.

Noobz347 · Apr 2, 2012

Gearbanger 101 said:
95% of the forced induction cars out there don't run Wideband set ups.

As stated....this is all monitored for you when you take the vehicle in for the tune. Is it a waste fo money? No. Can you run one? Sure....but is it a necessity? Nope...not if you're taking it in to be tuned anyway.

I mean...if that were the case, everyone should be running one. Forced induction, N/A, or otherwise. As far as your bad sensor goes....as much as you'd like to credit your wideband for finding it for you, you could have easily found that code by running a plain old diagnostic on it just the same.

I had the Innovate LM-1 set up on my Cougar. I bought it with the intention of doing my own tuning. When that didn't work out, I brought it to they dyno to have it done. They did a spot on job. About a year later, the wideband sensor burnt out and it started flashing error codes and quit working and I never used it again. I could have spend the $200 of something far more useful.

Again...if you're going to tune your own vehcile....by all means, buy it. If not...rely on the equipment at your local dyno. They make their living making sure that their stuff if accurate and working. Don't give it a second though.

Under that logic, there'd be no reason to run an oil pressure guage. Jiffy Lube did a fine job of changing that oil.

I mean... I was going to change the oil myself but one thing led to another and before you know it, I was on the rack at the 20 minute oil change so I didn't need that pressure guage anymore.

An over simplification to be sure. Regardless, if you're running a boosted and something happens... Anything... When do you suppose the best time to discover problem might be?

I cannot subscribe to the idea that if someone else tunes it, that, that is that. I've come across two separate occations where the wideband saved me the potential of thousands of dollars:

The first was when the distributor hold down worked it's way loose. The dizzy had rotated to the advance side and I noticed that the AFR was leaner than usual. A little more power to the accelerator confirmed that something was wrong. I get back to the house and pop the hood, looking for a vac leak or something obvious. Leaning over to look with my hand on the dizzy, uncovered the problem.

The second was a power shift that went wrong. Rev/Pop. Shortly after that was when I discovered (again) a lean condition. It took two seconds under the hood to see that the cross-over line between the boosted and non-boosted manifolds had popped off of the intake.

So there are two conditions that could have been catesrophic causing lean detonation circumstances under boost. Neither of those conditions would have revealed themselves from any other cockpit aid, other than Air Fuel Ratio.

Furthermore, how many dyno shops out there take the time to do part power tuning? Maybe half? Most do the WOT tuning and call it quits. It's pretty nice being able to produce a data log to take back to the tuner after some seat time and say, "Here... it's not right at part/full power between rpm x and y".

It also comes in handy when switching from this gas station or that. Most times, crappy or good gas can be compensated for with a minor timing adjustment (particularly on those cars (Fox) without knock sensors).

Ah... I failed to mention one other circumstance where the wideband helped with a diagnosis. It's a comon problem too. The chip in the back the EEC. They're NOTORIOUS for not seating correctly. There were other symptoms that went along with the problem but it becomes as plain as the nose on your face when your AFR looks like it did BEFORE you got your tune. Dead giveaway.

darthcual · Apr 2, 2012

So assuming I get a wideband, where should my AFR's be sitting to be nice and safe? 11.5? 12? I don't care about leaving power on the table, just want it to be pig rich and reliable.

Noobz347 · Apr 2, 2012

14.7 @ idle and cruise.

12.5 to 13.5 ish @ WOT N/A (depending on cam and compression)

12ish to 12.5 (max) under boost

It really depends on the build and where you make power and what ends up being too lean for your setup. At any hint of *ping* you need to enrichen the fuel and/or retard timing (usually a combination of the two to find the sweet spot).

Onefine88 · Apr 2, 2012

While they're arguing I'll confuse you even more by telling you what I use. I didn't buy a wideband. I dont trust myself to adjust A/F ratios so I leave that to the professionals and a dyno.
I'm no guru or expert. But my SSC has been supercharged successfully for more than 7yrs with these supporting "mods".
-I highly recommend using an SCT chip (tuned by a professional on a dyno).
-I also recommend buying the already mentioned 255lph highpressure pump. (Part#GSS 340) if memory serves. That pump will be good until you achieve around 500rwhp. At that point ,You'll need to look into purchasing a T-rex or similar inline pump.
- I use 42lb injectors and with those you do (NOT) need the FMU that comes with your Supercharger. Don't install it if you run anything larger than stock 19lb injectors.
- I use an 8Omm MAF calibrated to match the 42's. Mine is made by C&L.
-Adjustable Fuel pressure regulator. I use one made by Kirban. Your tuner will need this to adjust fuel pressure when dyno tuning your car.
- MSD 6BTM. That is an ignition box designed for retarding timing as well as amplifying the ignition (which is recommended on boosted engines). Your tuner can decide whether or not to use the boost timing retard function (If you tune it with an SCT chip). If you don't tune it on a chip then you will use the boost retard (function) knob. I originally used that knob(function) before I bought the SCT chip. Now I dont use that function and it stays unused, set on "0".
*My 6BTM is now only being used to amplify the ignition because timing retard is being adjusted by the SCT chip I mentioned above.

If you set your car up with these items, (and have it dynotuned by a professional) it will run great, be safe and reliable.

As I mentioned before, I'm no expert but through "Trial and error" I know what works for me.

Good Luck, I hope this helps

Noobz347 · Apr 2, 2012

In the case of 89SSC, I would STILL recommend the wideband for sole purpose of having a readable indication of something going awry prior to engine damage being done.

darthcual · Apr 2, 2012

I've got an email into vortech, I will see what they say then copy/paste it in here.

darthcual · Oct 11, 2012

Bringing this back from the dead. The vortech kit will be here in a week or so and I want to get any additional problems I may have delt with before hand if possible. The newest one on my mind is I am running a trickflow a/c delete, that is, the bracket that relocates the tensioner pulley plus no smog pump. Is this going to be an issue when installing the vortech kit? I see from the pictures that the bracket relocates the alternator down by the smog pump. I could put the a/c bracket and compressor back on for the time being until something else could be done. Just need to remember to take it to my buddies house where we will be doing the install. Anybody with experience?

MY 85 GT · Oct 11, 2012

My car at idle is anywhere from 14.5 to 15.2 ish...and WOT 11.1 to 11.2 but im turbo so im guessing the tuner went more fat.And to the OP i had a stock long block car ran a 190lph with an FMU and 10 psi and a meth injection kit never had a problem never saw a tuner either just me in my driveway..Oh and my car was still speed density...it ran great so its the luck of the draw...When i went Turbo and a Trick flow top end yes the car got tuned...lol

RacEoHolic330 · Oct 11, 2012

darthcual said:
Bringing this back from the dead. The vortech kit will be here in a week or so and I want to get any additional problems I may have delt with before hand if possible. The newest one on my mind is I am running a trickflow a/c delete, that is, the bracket that relocates the tensioner pulley plus no smog pump. Is this going to be an issue when installing the vortech kit? I see from the pictures that the bracket relocates the alternator down by the smog pump. I could put the a/c bracket and compressor back on for the time being until something else could be done. Just need to remember to take it to my buddies house where we will be doing the install. Anybody with experience?

This picture should answer your question. You will need a smog pump delete pulley for everything to work.

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