'88 GT Convertible - Croatia, Europe

snovak

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That is lack of oil damage. Most likely the lifter is not letting oil thru to the pushrod, Install a direct pressure gauge to check the oil pressure. Replace the pushrod and the rocker arm. Pull the intake check the camshaft lobes for wear and that lifter in particular. The early roller blocks used to let a lifter go sideways once in a while
Thnx. Lack of oil is what I am scared of since the knock started. I was waaaaay more careful IMO than anyone here not to drop anything when lower intake was off, so my guess is there was/is a mess of a sludge like it was under upper intake.
I may have disturber things further when I lifter engine by back of the oil pan to change engine mounts... only question is why is the oil pressure still okay?!
Dropping the oil pan to be done.

Anyways, apart from manual - on stock gauge on cold start I have one line above middle of gauge. On warm idle it drops to first white line above red. It goes up with revolutions. I know it should be a simple on/off switch, but eitherway it moves and showes pressure change. Just not as fast and precise as manual gauge.
Few times I saw needle when letting the throttle off to brake with engine that it sink, but I never saw it below first white line since I got the car.

Regarding pushrod and rocker, they are the original ones I have on shelf. There are new ones in, accompanied with a new lifters and rocker bolts.
Question was only in a sense to avoid such a damage of new parts...
When checking valvetrain before lifter change (two weeks ago) with running engine and valve covers off, I saw some 20-30 seconds of dry run then oil started to seep thru pushrods....

Check the oil pressure with a direct pressure gauge. Use the tap near the oil filter. There is no test for the oil filter bypassing. You can cut the filter apart and check for sludge. The oil pump pickup tube is what will be plugged if the silicone oil pan gasket deteriorates. The silicone chunks will make it to the filter and be trapped. Real common on 2.3 Mustang and Rangers. Car will have little to no oil pressure and will be okay after replacing the pickup tube. If you can't find a new pickup tube in Croatia, then clean it out. Just cut the screen off clean the tube in solvent and re weld the screen.
Last time we checked pressure on oil tap by filter it was okay and within spec. That wories me... if it would drop things would be clear....
Filter was cut and there was pretty good amount of sludge.
It was planned for this winter even if the car would run perfect: I have waiting in my garage on stock from rockauto: melling oil pump, oil pump shaft, new oil pan, new oil pickup tube, felpro blue pan gasket, new oil pan bolts...

All the 302 roller engines can have a lifter break a dog bone and ride the camshaft sideways. I've seen it a few times. Happened to me on my 347. Didn't really over rev it either. Wiped the camshaft and destroyed the lifter. My push rods and rockers were all OK. Happened on just one lifter.

It was years ago and the machine shop blamed it on Royal Purple synthetic oil. Synthetics got blamed for everything back then.
Thnx but - no. Two weeks ago I had lower intake off for second time this year to throw in FRPP lifters. Cam lobes were shiny and okay, actually everything what we checked did look okay.
Found just one pushrod and rocker with some wear (cyl2, exhaust, pictures above), and was lucky as dog I found issue and knock source, but it was not.

It may be in my head now, but I may had a feeling that oil needs a lot of time to get to lifters upon first start after new lifters (of course I primed engine also, and additionally cranked engine for 2 minutes before real start just to be sure).
 
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snovak

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Yesterday also I found lower airpump bolt a bit loose and washer dancing freely (airpump to timing pointer bracket). But I wouldn't say it could produce knock, as knock is too much in sync with timing strobe light.
Would it? I am avoiding running engine to verify before I do the oil pan inspection.


Soooo, I am about to drop the pan, but just thinking out loud about possible oil starvation:
- oil needs 20-30 seconds to reach pushrods
- knock by oil filter
- knock on idle, NO knock after 2000rpm
- oil pressure okay (manual&dash gauge)
- everything else we check seems okay...

Now, You know that 5.0 engines - may I have someking of problem with oil pump?


Not pressure related but volume of oil pumped?
Why does engine stop to knock when I increase revolutions (and build oil pressure)?

Anyways, due to Your experience wouldn't a faulty oil pump or restricted pickup clearly show itself on oil pressure gauge check?
 

90sickfox

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If there is a restriction in the oil feed line after the oil pressure sensor you'll show higher pressure than can be reaching internal parts. Generally, a clogged oil screen will cause oil pressure to drop as rpm increases.
 
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snovak

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Good news! Found the problem when scouting flexplate health again and how to drop k-member. I removed serpetine belt and wiggled balancer .....

Bad news! I have crank front to back play, roughly measured a whole 1.3mm or 0.051" (close to 1/16"). To be exact I must get dial gauge.
Now, the HB play is followed by flexplate hence I know crank has a play....
Pushing HB front and back is very, very close to knock sound I hear on idle :-(

According to play, what may I expect down there? Thrust bearing, beaten bearings or machining?
 
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manicmechanic007

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Say a prayer for your crankshaft. I had the same issue and needed a new one. If you are real lucky you just need new main bearings. The thrust bearing is the middle (#3) journal. Pretty easy to measure and check. The rods cannot handle all that side play. Knock knock boom. You can replace the rod and main bearings with the pan off and the crank still in the block but it is a big deal and an expensive job. You will wish you had the engine out by the time you are done.
You can do it
 
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90sickfox

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It is a PITA with the engine in the car. Can be done though. It's best to use an engine support bar across the top, remove the front suspension, and drop the k member. I wish you luck on this one man.

If you pull the caps and show some pics of the bearings we'd have a better idea of what happened and what you need to do to fix it.
 
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manicmechanic007

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I am currently replacing the balance shaft in an 06 Mercedes E360 with the engine still in the car
What a mistake
On so many levels
I need a grenade in one hand and a whisky in the other
 

snovak

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@manicmechanic007 prayers are on :) :-(
I won't take the engine out, cause I know myself that it will finish with a complete rebuild. (I have perfectionist disease).
We will inspect crank...only god knows if its saveable before we lower the pan. I'm tearing down suspension to drop k-member. With two kids and full time job, I may finish until end of week :-/

@90sickfox thnx. I will post carnage here... just let me get to it :)
We will go to PITA way, having some prayers and hope... But there is a bold chance (as far as I read) that thrust bearing will lead to pulling the engine and rebuild. God let me be wrong on last one and proove 302 toughness...

Anyways... three balancers changes and impact wrench, one wrong HB from Rockauto (vibrations at 1600rpm, driven 50miles) may have caused some toll on bearings...
To all guys with knock-ish problems:
- don't drive with faulty balancer, not even 50miles :-(
- don't assume knock on cold start are lifters, especially if it progresses to warm idle knock also in short time :-(
- don't drive
- finally, drop the pan if You buy a car with suspicious history and sludge in lifter valley (@General karthief suggested that, but I was stupid and had no space in that garage in winter)
- don't drive :-(

Tearing down to get to the pan in process...
Just in case, are there any good sources of reliable rebuilt/remanufactured 302 short/long crates in USA ready to ship overseas?
Somebody once told me that all bad things should be observed from the good side. Therefore, at least I will now finally strip, sandblast and powder coat frot suspension parts....if the engine blew we will drive like Flintstones :)
 
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manicmechanic007

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Snovac,
Great. I am proud of you. We used to have to put the subframes on the floor on Taurus to replace transmissions too. your mustang is a bit harder. I would cheat bad and not pull the subframe all the way out. I know you can get the pan off by jacking the motor up (way up) and block it up with big sockets. You are going to do a bunch of work in there (not just a pan gasket or oil pump). So you will want to separate at the rag joint and let the rack hang there. I used to have to shift those subframes back and forth on the wrecked ones and the big bolts come loose fairly easy. I would try to get the bearings job done by just taking two bolts out of the crossmember and the others all the way loose. That should drop it down far enough
 

snovak

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@manicmechanic007 too late pal, I am at k-member bolts, only steering rack in the way now. 4x4 and motorcycle straps are ready... :)
Wheel parts to be sandblasted and powder coated...

Anyhow, in my opinion with k member in way, it would be waaaay more harder to check, and (if I get lucky enough to get away with) change all bottom bearings
 

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snovak

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10pm and k-member is finally down. I was affraid of weight, but I can take it to sandblasting by foot. Ain't that heavy. I drilled two 3.2mm holes at each side of back two bolts to use as a dowel pin when I (hopefully) reassemble.
Instead of hanging it as recommended and hitting it with head, I took steering rack off the car, it was two bolts more .... I will do the same with sway bay (and powder coat) tomorrow as oil will drain...
Oil pan is exposed, but it was late and cold to my pal in garage (rhodesian ridgeback) so we closed the day before draining and lowering pan... Prayers are on.... keep fingers crossed.

I saw some old sludge above starter, but I also have leak somewhere around tranny cooling lines. This car has a leak history (valve covers leaking and loose and PCV out of engine when I bough it).
The question is could the sludge above starter be a rear main seal leak? (I attached pictures)

And a good thing in all this mess...everything I touch is stock on car and I didnt know but I have Koni adjustable front shocks (I assume also at the back as they are also orange Koni)
 

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snovak

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Ok, late here, again 10pm and the pan is off.
Didn't take caps off, just analyzed battlefield:
-oil pan has a coating flaking off between humps, otherwise pretty clean...
-pickup screen had some 1" silicone (not as much to restrict flow I think)
-oil pump is coated with sludge, normal?
-rods have side to side play (axial front to back of engine), a lot... approx 1mm (didn't measure)
Didn't want to proceed without mechanic present. I may not see obvious fault...

To me, a bit dirty but it looks good in general apart from rods side to side play.
Bearings to be checked...
Pictures attached if You see something...
 

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snovak

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Ohhh... this shiny surface on picture just caught my eye....
 

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90sickfox

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Hard to tell from pics. The oil seems to have a gray metallic color. You'd have to pull the bearing caps to really see what's going on. Bearing surface condition will tell the story. When putting bearing caps back on use assembly lube on bearing surface, keep them in same position, and torque to spec.
 
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snovak

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Hi. I didnt pull the caps cause this week I'm on business trip.

But I lurked into engine once more. Could not take a picture due to the angle, but at the bottom of piston (skirt) there are some fine scratches, wouldn't call it scoring... Position is exactly the middle of the longest side of skirt, mostly visible at the bottom of skirt.
What may have caused this?
Maybe I may have metal in oil?
I have had an oil starvation since knock?
Or maybe PO overheated engine at some point?
Or a simple wear for ~100k miles?

Pulling the engine.... you see on pictures of my sway bay what I mean when avoiding it: It was stripped to bare metal and then painted in Koni orange leftovers.....
That is why I am affraid to pull the engine, it will be a total rebuild...
 

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manicmechanic007

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You passed the exam
What do the bores look like
What do the valve seats look like
You got a bore scope?
You should check out the procedure for pulling the coil springs out of a 78 Jaguar XJ
 

snovak

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You passed the exam
What do the bores look like
What do the valve seats look like
You got a bore scope?
You should check out the procedure for pulling the coil springs out of a 78 Jaguar XJ
Thnx. I can't check (borescopecam) valves and cylinders from above properly due to engine support beam.
I have attached pictures of bottom piston skirts, cylinder bore bottom end and cam lobes in distance...
Is this scuffing on skirts and cylinder walls "normal" wear for 90k engine?
 

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snovak

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Okay #1 and #5 (first journal) upper OEM Ford 1988 bearings are shot. Copper showing up... crank looks okay, a bit polish only needed...

Can I get by by puttin in new std bearings?
Hard to tell, but could this really be a knock source?
 

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