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Do you really need a 'tune' or is it bs

  • Thread starter Thread starter General karthief
  • Start date Start date Sep 7, 2020
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junkyardwarrior

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the factory tune is a mess even on a bone stock engine

there is much to be gained in a good tune, even bone stock

much more when you start swapping stuff; although for years people have done mafs throttle bodies and the like and got away with lying to the ecu

hook up a quarterhorse, run tunerpro on your bone stock 5.0 and watch your load calculations if you don't believe me. just messing with the maf transfer is worth a little power, not even counting spark. There's quite a bit left on the table just in spark alone

remember-ford had to make it run nice and smooth, quiet, yet fun, and meet all sorts of government emissions (and other) standards---and keep it reliable enough to get through warranty and extended warranty periods, figure 100,000 mi, on 85 octane fuel. 85 is "regular" in some areas, premium is 89- 91. Hence the extremely conservative setup. Left a LOT on the table

but in 1989 they were "fast". today they are novelty, a stocker is just adorable. And apparently collectible.

that's just the 5.0's....the 2.3's left a LOT more to be desired as well. They were (are) painfully and dangerously underpowered. And yeah I own one...LOL. Cheap transportation, and it will remain a 4 cylinder as long as I own it.
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Noobz347 said:
This sounds to me like whoever tuned it, was a hack, and did it wrong.

The other thought that occurs to me is that there's is something physically wrong with the combo that no amount of tuning will fix.
Click to expand...
I am convinced that a new tps, and an idle reset would resolve this cars issues and it did not need the tuner chip, I would be surprised if this combo makes more than 265 hp, it does have the explorer tb.
This is a perfect example of wasted money on a tune/chip.
Am I correct?
I agree the tuner guy took his money and ran.
So what you are saying is the computers in our cars can have changes made to them, is this done with or without the 'chip' or am I looking at it wrong?
 

Noobz347

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General karthief said:
This is a perfect example of wasted money on a tune/chip.
Am I correct?
Click to expand...

No, it's not because you don't know what's wrong with the car.
 
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Habu135

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If you spent the $3000 on a new brand name H/C/I combo why would you not spend the extra $350 to get it tuned and working perfectly (air flow, fuel pressure, etc.)?
 

Noobz347

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There's a completely mechanical solution to fuel injection. They call it a carburetor. They work nice.
 
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7991LXnSHO

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The knowledge sets it takes to tune a carb or the fluid dynamics in a non electronic transmission are becoming black magic arts.
My 1960’s cars are still not getting EFI for now.
Noobz347 said:
There's a completely mechanical solution to fuel injection. They call it a carburetor. They work nice.
Click to expand...
 

Blown88GT

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#27
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Noobz347 said:
...
The same thing happens when there's a Block Change on an F-15. They add another couple thousand pounds of thrust along with thrust vectoring then update the software to deal with all of those changes. They certainly have the option o making mechanical interfaces to deal with the old computer and software but to the Airforce, it just made more sense to modify the computer to accept the upgraded hardware....
Click to expand...
I was the lead designer of the software (firmware) verification hardware for the F16 version (NASA's VISTA program). The F15 version was Alpha upon which the F16 thrust vectoring was based. It was successful. Company politics kept them from being implemented past the prototype aircraft.
 
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DudeStang

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I was going to add a question to my progress thread that is somewhat related to this but maybe this thread is a better place...

I was reading about the Holly Terminator X recently and given the rats nest of wiring, gas smell, and rough idle on my 1988, was thinking that would be a great addition that would help clean up some the fire hazard wiring and help the car run stronger/more smoothly, but based on some of the feedback in this thread, I’m wondering if it would be worth the cost on a car that is mostly stock (only significant mods I’ve confirmed are headers, O/R X pipe, and Flowmasters).

Is an engine management system like the Terminator X (or maybe something cheaper like the Bama 4 bank eliminator “chip”) worth the cost on a mostly stock Fox?
 

Noobz347

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Blown88GT said:
I was the lead designer of the software (firmware) verification hardware for the F16 version (NASA's VISTA program). The F15 version was Alpha upon which the F16 thrust vectoring was based. It was successful. Company politics kept them from being implemented past the prototype aircraft.
Click to expand...


I was attached to tankers then. We'd go out and support the "Business Efforts" out there in Toy Land. Our primary interest in the effort had to do with Speckled Trout.

I always kind of appreciated the arrangement they have out there with various project stakeholders. What I mean is: Project Managers would barter resources from one another in order to keep individual project costs down. I only saw a small portion of the pie but they seemed to be exceptional at muti-using resources between projects when an asset was being brought in.
 
A

aztecgwynn

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Personally I thought tuning was a great expense.
but my mods were aluminum Edelbrock heads, Ford cobra intake, and bigger mass air meter.
I could not argue one bit with what tuner squeezed out of car and was severely underpowered before I had tuned.
But I think if minor mods are done pulleys, headers, cat back exhaust I don’t think tune would be necessary.
 

Blown88GT

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Noobz347 said:
I was attached to tankers then. We'd go out and support the "Business Efforts" out there in Toy Land. Our primary interest in the effort had to do with Speckled Trout.

I always kind of appreciated the arrangement they have out there with various project stakeholders. What I mean is: Project Managers would barter resources from one another in order to keep individual project costs down. I only saw a small portion of the pie but they seemed to be exceptional at muti-using resources between projects when an asset was being brought in.
Click to expand...
I wasn't involved in the field testing. When Vista ended, I was offered the lead for the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter), now the F35 Lightning. It was a competition between Lockheed & Boeing, so pretty much the double the hardware needed. I spent $6M in in a few months just on the verification hardware. The engine program was $900M to 1st prototype with several 1000 people working full time on the F135 engine.

Fox body ECU is not all that much different from the F135 FADEC or the F100 DEEC.
 

Cheapskate207

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I’ll share my experience. I picked up 50whp with my dyno tune. HCI car. Also, it ran much better after. (Driveability and idle)
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Cheapskate207 said:
I’ll share my experience. I picked up 50whp with my dyno tune. HCI car. Also, it ran much better after. (Driveability and idle)
Click to expand...
Now this is an example of what I'm talking about.
How did the car run before the dyno session and what did the operator look at and change, details.
 

Cheapskate207

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General karthief said:
Now this is an example of what I'm talking about.
How did the car run before the dyno session and what did the operator look at and change, details.
Click to expand...

Before the car surged and bucked at low rpm cruising. It had a intermittent surging idle. It we generally hard to drive. I ensured all my sensors were good before going to the tuner. Now this was a while ago, so its tough to remember. He set timing and verfied fuel pressure. Asked about modifications, thermostat, and spark plugs. Everything checked out so he plugged in with his laptop. I would guess he could see all the data from sensors and verified they were working. He wasn't the most talkative guy about what exactly he was doing.. I chalked it up to working his magic. He is renounced as an excellent ford tuner in the northeast and one of the only that actually tunes these old cars. I know that he changed the timing curve and fuel table, but not what else. For reference I had edlebrock heads and intake, unknown cam, 30lb injectors, and a BBK fenderwell CAI and matching MAF. First pull was 250hp and the last was 299hp. I also talked to him quite a bit about further modifications, what he's seen work well, how to make more power, and other general mustang stuff. Money well spend for me.
 
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Willybill32

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General karthief said:
Are we getting away from the main question?
I think so, I am talking about a near 350hp- h/c/i car, no blower, no turbo, no nitrous. I understand there is a limit to what the computer can do.
The reason I asked this is because of a discussion with someone that had a mustang tuned after a h/c/i installed by a 'mechanic friend' that told him he needed it 'tuned' after the install. Nothing out of the ordinary.
It bucked at low rpms and fell on it's face at wot. After the tune (I don't know who 'tuned' it) he mentioned it ran better, but still bucked 'a little' at low rpms but wot was great. He spent $450 on the tune.
Btw, I did check his tps and it was set @1.24 with the idle @ 900pms and wot was 0, he chose not to do anything about it.
Oh, and I out run him consistently with my 'closer' to stock stuff.
I feel he wasted his money and I think I can make it run better with a new tps, a screw driver and pull the chip out.
Click to expand...
The mention of “bucking” got my attention. My stock ‘86 was converted to MAF years ago. In the last year it got TW 170 heads, E303 cam, 24 lb injectors, Edelbrock intake, BBK mass air sensor, 65mm throttle body, etc. I did have it tuned (314 HP, 349 torque) and it starts and runs great, but bucks a bit at 1,000-1,200 RPM. I’m told that is due to the cam. Is there a fix for that?
 

General karthief

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I understand this was awhile ago and lack of remembering, I'm sure you don't have the sheet anymore, I'd be interested in seeing what the working parameters were starting and what was done to 'fix' the issues.
 

Cheapskate207

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All I have is the ending dyno pull sheet.
 
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Noobz347

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General karthief said:
Now this is an example of what I'm talking about.
How did the car run before the dyno session and what did the operator look at and change, details.
Click to expand...


One of the things specifically with fuel injectors that many people including some tuners, don't consider and [also] why I puke in my mouth a little bit when someone mentions "tuned" mass air meters:

Alternate titles for this explanation:
One reason why tuning fuel injection mechanically is not ideal
Why I picked up 50 HP from just a tune

1. Physical Variance in Injector Slope


This is a visual representation of the variance that can occur between to physically different size injectors. Note that each of these slopes takes place within the same 0-5V range. The 19lb injector will of course, get to a full 5 volts faster and more often than a 42 lb injectors. Note also that no injector flows linearly from zero percent duty cycle to 100%. That non-linear injector flow [will] vary depending upon the pressure and volume of the fuel supply. The curves in the slope will change.
Most of us should know this: Fuel injectors were each designed for an optimum spray pattern at a given pressure. This isn't make or break for an injector but is certainly a factor. An ECU is programmed/designed to cooperate with and make efficient use of this slope under predetermined conditions (fuel pressure, volume, etc.).


2. Mass Air Meter Sampling and Resolution



When looking at this image, the [red] bit only exist in a "calibrated" meter. Any other or [normal] meter will have only the portions in black. The sensor is housed within a fixed sample tube. A portion of the sample tube is in the air stream and is optimized to produce a smooth flow pattern over the sensor element. The entire assembly is flow tested and optimized to use as much of the 5V range as is efficiently possible. This is to maximize the resolution of the meter. The more points you have to reference in the 0 to 5-volt range the more sample accuracy you have to match to a specific point in the preprogrammed table in the ECU. More points of reference = more exact and larger number of ECU responses to a given voltage. Full steps, half steps, quarter steps, etc...

Let's take a mass air meter and 'calibrate it' for larger injectors. The result is the [red] cover you see over the sensor element in the image above. We have to reduce the air sample size in order to 'fool' the ECU into thinking there is less air being sampled than before because at any given voltage, our injector to piss out a lot more fuel. This effectively reduced our maximum voltage from the sensor element. We now have to take all of our readings from within a smaller range (say, 0 to 4 volts for the sake of explanation). We just lost our [eighth] steps (resolution). altered the flow pattern over the sensor, and done nothing to address the variances in slopes of out different size injectors. The larger the difference in the size of the old and new injectors is [directly] proportional to the variance in their slopes. As the variance in injector size increases so does the variance in their slopes. Increasing fuel pressure [increases] these variances proportionately (i.e. adjustable fuel pressure regulator or fuel management unit). Let's not forget that we're also pushing the spray pattern further away from it's designed optimum in these circumstances.

If we remove our OEM sensor and put it into a larger housing then we're taking a smaller sample overall, of the mass of air passing through the meter. In addition to that, the "calibrated" meter will also include the shroud over the sensor in order to produce the repeatable out-signal necessary to mimic OEM behavior. So, we're taking an even smaller sample of the smaller overall percentage of sample able air volume.

What's great is that it starts and idles pretty decent. I can adjust fuel pressure to maximize power at the top of the RPM range. Even if I peg the meter, it doesn't matter too awful much because, at WOT, all I need to do is keeping adding fuel pressure until the volume increases enough to support the air I'm ingesting.


---OR---

I could purchase a meter that is sufficient in size for the amount of air I need for my combo. Put a properly sized sensor within the housing that gives me accurate and repeatable results across the [entire] 0 to 5-volt range with enough of a sensor sample area that I'm maximizing the measure of volume as accurately as possible and excluding turbulent portions of the assembly that might feed false data about actual volume.\
These are your Pro-M and PMAS and BigBore etc. meters.

They have a very reliable, repeatable transfer function that provides the widest resolutions and largest number of reference points possible in the 0 to 5-volt range. Many are as good as and some are much better than OEM in doing these things not to mention, that most are shipped with very detailed transfer functions with multiple point calculations.

For the sake of argument; If I buy a new MAF and it comes with a 30 point transfer function and a 15 point transfer function and I can use either one: Which one would I use? Which one would be the most accurate with the largest set of air volume reference points?

This is where digital tuning comes in:

I take my brand new, oversized 3000 cfm, Big Bore MAF, and read the 0 to 5-volt, 30 point transfer function from the slip of paper and input it into tuning software. I match these given output voltages to a given injector slope for the X sized injector that I'm about to install. So, no matter the load or commanded AFR becomes, I've got all the accurate data loaded into the EEC and accounted for the variances in both: Air Volume sampling and injector size and slope variation. The EEC now has the information necessary to command the [exact] duty cycle to the injector for the demand.

Now, having said all of that: It is also common practice to vary the fuel tables in order to make up for some deficiencies in measuring and metering equipment. In other words: I can adjust some things to help compensate for a crappy meter that only has a reliable transfer curve between .75-volts and 4.2-volts. I can also adjust some things to accommodate variations in the injector slope (i.e cheap injector or injector pushed outside of specification). These changes will help bring things closer but are not as accurate and [still] requires digital tuning.

Just for a visual representation: This is what an injector slope might look like when you increase pressure on a given injector. The amount of exaggeration between the lines would be more or less, depending on how far away fuel pressure is from the designed specification:




At least there will always be one "sweet spot" where the car will run great and make the most power.

Generally, that sweet spot, or intersect, is pushed to WOT (I can't imagine why).



I generally avaid these discussions because it takes sooooooooooooo long to put together a decent explanation. By tuning the vehicle, you're maximizing best possible resolutions of your sensors and output devices by making use of the entire range of each.

This is also a pretty good explanation of why you guys sometimes see me arguing against oversized injectors. It pisses away available increments of precision of that injector. The same with Mass Air Meters or any other sensor that you have to "cheat" or "scale" in order to make it work correctly for the application.

Digital tuning allows full capabilities of each of these components in order to make it better than "close enough".
 
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fun331

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There's a lot of technical stuff on here that's way above why I have had a few dyno tunes. My first time was with the stock block and all the usual bolt on's, really just tuning the adjustable fuel pressure regulator and timing for max power but it helped. I wound up with about 280 HP and 321ft/lbs to the tires of my 89. No chip installed.
I made some changes over the years and went back to the same dyno place but she never beat those numbers. He was knowledgeable and reasonable on price so I looked at it as just another part to buy. I doubt if I spent $500 in two or three sessions with 3-8 pulls each session.
Second engine has most of the same bolt-ons passed down to it, more cubes but way less compression. The guy sold the business but the new owner set me up with my first chip (SCT switch chip) and I like it. Just generic tunes on it. First is the base dyno tune. Then there's 5% more fuel, one for 5% more timing and one for 5% more fuel and timing. Motor makes around 300 of each to the tires. The chip was also super useful for things like turning off my check engine light for the EGR delete. Pollution control isn't required in NS on cars made before 91 so my 89 has slowly been losing her restrictions over the years. Nice to have the engine light turn on when something lets go and not be on all the time.
So maybe I didn't need it, but no, I don't think a tune is BS. Why spend many thousands on mods and not try to get the most from it. I'm sure there are places you can go and get ripped off though.
 
Last edited: Sep 12, 2020

marcelo

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#40
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so much money spent in Tuning Parts and all kind of Mods .. why not in a new ECU ..there is nothing better then Data log option and check what you get ..then adjust for the best ... or what you want ..every change or upgrade will change also something in the tune .. original ECU might be good to some point .. but you ll never know what you really get without a wideband/ Datalog ...just made me a big tube Cold air intake with 75mm TB causing way cooler intake air temp( thanks to datalog I can see the difference!!!) ... cooler Air gives me the chance to advance timing = some extra HPs....or check out your AFR readings from 0 to 6000 and with some clicks you get "perfect" AFR readings all over your RPM range..etc etc endless tuning options ...
 
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